Dr Douglas Hamp has a special guest Alan Kurschner on his programme, The Awakening Report to discuss reasons why a Prewrath Rapture best fits Scripture and all of the problems with PreTrib and MidTrib rapture positions. Most of you know I support Alan’s PreWrath view of The Rapture of Christians prior to Jesus return to rule and reign from Jerusalem in the Millennium. Douglas Hamp has realised the PreTrib position is not Biblically tenable but is yet to decide on PreWrath versus Post Trib positions. I am confident that you will find this video instructive as did Douglas. He intends to have Alan back on his programme at some future date.
“Now when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been violently killed because of the word of God and because of the testimony they had given. They cried out with a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Master, holy and true, before you judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?” Each of them was given a long white robe and they were told to rest for a little longer, until the full number was reached of both their fellow servants and their brothers who were going to be killed just as they had been. Then I looked when the Lamb opened the sixth seal, and a huge earthquake took place; the sun became as black as sackcloth made of hair, and the full moon became blood red. . . . .” (Revelation 6:9–12)
The Rapture has not occurred at the fifth seal as those under the altar are identified as souls and they are asking God when will He avenge them. Note also the cosmic disturbances that take place at the sixth seal they precede the coming of the Day of the Lord – The Rapture.
“After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” (Revelation 7: 9-10)
It is at the end of the sixth seal, John saw the raptured multitude of saints praising God standing before God’s throne in heaven. The rapture has taken place.
“I will produce portents both in the sky and on the earth— blood, fire, and columns of smoke. The sunlight will be turned to darkness and the moon to the colour of blood, before the day of the LORD comes— that great and terrible day!” (Joel 2:30–31)
Note again the cosmic disturbances before the Day of the Lord comes.
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Matthew 24:29–31)
Note it is after the tribulation that the cosmic disturbances take place before the Son of Man comes to rapture His saints, those dead first and then those alive on the earth.
“And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth nations will be in distress, anxious over the roaring of the sea and the surging waves. People will be fainting from fear and from the expectation of what is coming on the world, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man arriving in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these things begin to happen, stand up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” Then he told them a parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the other trees. When they sprout leaves, you see for yourselves and know that summer is now near. So also you, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.” (Luke 21:25–31)
Note once again the cosmic disturbances precede the Son of Man coming to rapture His church.
I hope this helps to show The Rapture takes place after the tribulation not Pretribulation and that it takes before the wrath of God is poured out with the trumpet and Bowl judgements. Defined by the “end times” writers as a PreWrath Rapture
“Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.”
Michael Brown and Craig Keener in their new book Not Afraid Of The Antichrist make a good case that the rapture and 2nd coming are not two separate events separated by years but a single event of hours (possible days) that transpires right at the end of this age and just before Christ’s literal reign upon this earth. The authors certainly dispel the arguments made for a Pretribulation rapture. This is extremely important, Christians need to understand that in the “last days” they will experience tribulation even great tribulation. This is clearly prophesied by Jesus.
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.” Matthew 24:9-13
Followers of my blog, will know that I support the PreWrath Rapture position, which has the Rapture occurring at the trumpet blast at the seventh seal. The wrath of God is then poured out with the Trumpet and Bowl Judgements. This happens in the last year of the seventh year of Daniels 70 weeks prophecy. The saints will have a sabbath year (Shemitah) prior to coming back to earth with Jesus to liberate Israel prior to His Millennial reign.
Our major difference to Brown and Keener is we believe Jesus said His children will not experience the wrath of God. Brown and Keener do not differentiate between the Tribulation and the Wrath of God.
Christians will experience tribulation, even great tribulation and how we handle it will be a great witness to the world and bring many into the Kingdom. It will be a time of refining/testing and sadly many will fall away as Jesus prophesied.
David Rosenthal, Director of Operations at Zion’s Hope, discusses the epic events which will take place in a brief, but crucial interval between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals around the scroll in the Book of Revelation.
Before God’s wrath and fury rains down upon a sinful and unrepentant humanity during the Day of the Lord, 144,000 Jews will be sealed for protection and a great multitude of faithful followers of Jesus Christ will be gloriously resurrected or raptured.
Dr Rosenthal has produced three videos in this series, so if you are inspired by this video which is the third, then I suggest you check out http://www.zionshope.org to access the first two videos. Also please share these videos with your friends and family!
Alan Kurschner presents a convincing case for a PreWrath Rapture i.e. prior to the wrath of God being poured out in the Trumpet and Bowl Judgements. The video is a debate between Alan and Tom Ice who presents the case for a PreTribulation Rapture. It is a 50 minute debate so make sure you schedule sufficient time, and can I suggest you view it with your church group, so that you can discuss it afterward.
Prior to this video, I put up Nelson Walters much shorter video in the post titled, Eloquent Teaching on the Timing of The Rapture. I suggest you watch it prior to Alan’s debate with Tom Ice. Nelson also supports a PreWrath Rapture.
A simple and yet powerful presentation by Nelson Walters of Gospel in the End Times that provides convincing evidence for a PreWrath rapture. Make sure you connect with Nelson for other great presentations on the end times. Nelson has agreed for me to include these presentations on my website http://www.powerpointsermons.net – resources for the end times church.
Abbreviated version of Alan Kurschner’s (Eschatos Ministries) article: Revelation 6:16–17 Is NOT a ‘Summary Statement’ of God’s Wrath
KEY VERSE: “They said to the mountains and to the rocks, ‘Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who is seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?’” Rev 6:16–17
It is the wicked who are exclaiming this! They are running to the caves during the sixth seal—not because the wrath of God is in the past—but because they realise that the day of the Lord is about to come upon them. This suddenness of the day of the Lord is consistent with the apostle Paul’s teaching regarding how the day of the Lord will come upon the wicked: “sudden destruction will come upon them, as labour pains come upon a pregnant woman, and there will be no escape!” 1 Thess 5:3
The sixth seal, the context of Rev 6:16–17 is drawing from Joel 2:31 “The sunlight will be turned to darkness and the moon to the colour of blood, before the day of the LORD comes– that great and terrible day!” Joel 2:31
Jesus’s teaches in Matthew 24 that the wrath of God begins when he returns to raise the saints from the dead and rapture the saints still alive, God separates the righteous and the wicked. This is when Jesus says the celestial disturbances will happen just before the wrath is poured out on the wicked (Matt 24:29–31; cf. Luke 21:25–28).
The fifth seal martyrs cry out to God asking when the wrath of God will begin: “How long, Sovereign Master, holy and true, before you judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?” (Rev 6:10). Their heavenly answer to them is to wait for the wrath “a little longer” (Rev 6:11). In other words, it is still in the future. . The martyrs understand that they were not killed because of God’s wrath. And they understand that God will pour out his wrath in the near future. They receive their new resurrected bodies depicted in Rev 7
Between the sixth seal and the seventh seal there are two groups of people being delivered (resurrected and raptured saints). Why would they be delivered at a point after God’s wrath? Rather, they are being delivered from what is about to occur when the seventh seal is opened and the trumpet is sounded which introduces the trumpets and bowls of God’s wrath.
The Church is at war with itself over Rapture timing. It’s a Rapture Civil War. What are the motivations of the two groups, and what is a solution to this war?
The Blessed Hope is the return of Jesus – it’s our only HOPE. But, some Christians refer to a “theory” about that return as the Blessed Hope. And in so doing, are they making “the Blessed Hope” Idolatry?
Many Christians are trusting in man-made theories to protect them rather than in Jesus himself. They are making assumptions about when certain things will happen and choosing to prepare – or not to prepare – for the end times based solely on these theories.
Nelson presents a truly balanced approach on how the church should approach the end times and where to put our hope.
Watch this video to discover why it is important to prepare for the end times regardless of what Rapture theory you believe.
Alan Kurschner on the flaws of a Pretribulation Rapture
Prewrath eschatology has exposed a fatal flaw in pretribulationism. It has shown that there are clear passages in the Bible that teach that certain, discernible, prophesied events will occur before the day of the Lord: the Antichrist and the apostasy (2 Thess 2:3), celestial disturbance (Joel 2:30-31), Elijah will return (Mal 4:5), the wicked saying “peace and safety” (1 Thess 5:2–3).
Pretribulation theology has traditionally taught that the rapture will occur on the same day that the day of the Lord begins, then any event that occurs before the day of the Lord will also have to occur before the rapture. This, of course, is problematic for the pretribulation position, because their entire theological pretribulation system is based on imminence, the belief that no prophesied events or signs can happen before the rapture.
Because of this crack in their system, untold numbers of pretribulational Christians in the last two decades have become prewrath in their eschatology and have rejected their previous pretribulation belief system. To be sure, there are many “pretribs” who have attempted to explain away this biblical contradiction to their system in various ways. One of the most common attempts to do so, and one that is growing in more popularity, has resulted for them needing to create a new dispensation and forcing it between the rapture when the church age dispensation is completed and the seven-year tribulation dispensation. So in essence they are creating a “gap” between the rapture and the seven-year period, a gap of time they claim that these “before the day of the Lord” events will occur. In this way, they attempt to maintain the doctrine of imminence. To place these events before the rapture in their system would be fatal to their theology.
Here is the problem: Their claim that the rapture is disconnected from the day when the day of the Lord’s wrath begins is without support. In fact, Scripture is quite consistent that the rapture and the beginning of the day of the Lord’s wrath occur on the same day, they are back-to-back events, not separated by days, weeks, months, or—I have even heard some pretrib teachers claim—years. I have covered this before here, here, and here.
Their interpretation is a deus ex machina in order to protect their imminence theology, so much so they are willing to grab out of thin air and inject a whole, new, distinct dispensation into God’s redemptive plan. Their dispensation-itus condition exposes their flawed theology when they feel the need to contrive a new dispensation in God’s plan when a contradiction is pointed out to them.
Let me give a plug for Alan’s book Prewrath: A Very Short Introduction to the Great Tribulation, Rapture, and Day of the Lord
Jesus does not teach a sign-less, imminent rapture. There are key discernible events/signs that must happen before Jesus returns for his church.
Jesus gave us due warning with signs/events that will occur prior to His return:
- Israel will be reestablished – Jesus told the parable of the fig tree (Israel) when you see it sprouting (reborn). “So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.” Luke 21;31
- “False messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. “Remember, I have told you ahead of time.“ Mark 13:21-22
- “And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.” Matthew 24:6
- “For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.” Matthew 24:7
- There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth nations will be in distress, anxious over the roaring of the sea and the surging waves. People will be fainting from fear and from the expectation of what is coming on the world, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. “But when these things begin to happen, stand up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
- “Now regarding the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to be with him… Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, and as a result he takes his seat in God’s temple, displaying himself as God. Surely you recall that I used to tell you these things while I was still with you.” 2 Thessalonians 2:1–5
- “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and takes the mark on his forehead or his hand, that person will also drink of the wine of God’s anger that has been mixed undiluted in the cup of his wrath, and he will be tortured with fire and sulphur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb… This requires the steadfast endurance of the saints—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to their faith in Jesus.” Revelation 14:9–12
- So when you see the abomination of desolation–spoken about by Daniel the prophet—standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains.
Sadly, much of the church has been deceived into believing a Pretribulation Rapture. The Bible clearly teaches in these Scriptures that the Saints will experience tribulation even great tribulation. However, the Bible also teaches the Saints will be raptured at the sixth seal before God pours out His wrath upon the earth in the trumpet and bowl judgements.